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Discussion on Religion, spirituality, conversion, Hinduism, Islam and the world

One of my good friends Mr. Naresh and myself, both ardent admirers of Hinduism, and who love to dabble in various ideas, had this friendly discussion on how things may pan out for Hinduism and other religions in India and the world to come. The discussion was very interesting with various perspectives. Like in real life private, informal, discussions, sometimes it goes all over the place. I have not unnecessarily edited it. I have only restricted myself to corrected the spelling errors, grammatical errors and in rare instances, occasionally modified a sentence slightly for clarity. Many of us who grapple with similar ideas and arguments about Islam, Hinduism, Christianity and the future of these religions in the Indian context, might find this discussion useful. SJ stands for Staju Jacob (myself) while NS stands for my friend Naresh S. The words in square brackets are my own comments as the editor of this chat. It all started with Mr. NS sharing a video on WhatsApp where the speaker in the video was suggesting that Hindu religious texts should be compulsorily introduced in all Indian schools.  Here is the actual discussion for you. 

[After the video was seen, Staju Jacob (SJ) initiated this discussion by commenting…]

Staju Jacob (SJ):  I am more in favour of introducing some knowledge of spirituality in schools without any particular isms.... For instance, basics of how to pray - how to connect with one's own spirituality - basics on how to read various religious texts and understand the inherent spiritual message etc. After this basic knowledge is imparted, students, when they grow up and reach High school level can opt for one or the other religious study in depth.... For instance, those who want to understand the Quran better can do so... those who want to go deeper into Gita or Bible or Guru Granth Sahib can do so

NS: 👍 And so all countries should do the same then.

SJ: Yes free societies without spiritual training is bad for societies. The current generation of many white [Caucasian] people who are completely untrained in spiritual search practices will find boredom and may need to resort to some form of drugs alcohol etc. to fill what they perceive as a mental vacuum even when they are materially very successful.

NS: England is full of Church of England schools (both state and private). And also Catholic and Jewish to a smaller extent. Very few Hindu, Muslim or Sikh schools get funding. Also, this country is one where Church of England is the established religion.

SJ: But only in catholic schools some form of religion is taught only to Catholic children.  To others I don't think there is any spiritual training given,  as far as I know.

NS: Here you can get troubled or attacked for telling the truth about religion, constitution and atrocities in their history.

SJ: Well, I think Shashi Tharoor recently did a good job of telling these things

NS: Yes he's high level too. He uses charm and diplomatic methods

SJ: I think at least the British are listening now.  In India things are going a bit bad I think. People are more routinely using violence if they disagree with your views.

NS: He's not a hard liner like a few Africans demanding compensation and bringing charges of crimes against humanity

SJ: I think India was more liberal when I was growing up.  [Recently] ‘Padmavati’ set in Maharashtra torched, crew beaten up -

http://toi.in/mtPloZ/a20ai

NS: Even here you dare not voice your opinion in the wrong crowd

SJ: Well, here you can criticise monarchy and even say that London should be a separate county or that Scotland should be a separate country

NS: Too liberal /too open?  And allowing everyone to convert to Islam and Christianity. Scotland is trying to be a separate country.

SJ:  But if you go to India and say Kashmir should be separate country your life could be in danger if you are not a well-known person.

NS:  In Kashmir, Muslims have more rights than Hindus in some things.

SJ: Well, I think the issue of conversion should be dealt with by using development and education -- automatically it will stop. The other thing is that we should have more police to public ratio to implement laws.

NS:  There are more Muslims in India than in Pakistan; hence Pakistan was not necessary.

SJ: I think Pakistan should become secular and perhaps join with India like US and Canada. Entire SAARC should be one nation I feel. Sri Lanka, Pakistan Bangladesh etc.

NS:  Yes I think so too. They should become secular and join India. Yes all can be secular and join up.

SJ: Yes

NS: 👍👍. Many in Pakistan are not happy

SJ: As far as I think long term despite the worry of some people [in India] of the danger to Hinduism,  I think it will thrive and by 2050 I think Hinduism will be second largest religion globally after Islam.

NS: Yeah maybe

SJ: While Hindu population might decrease in India if things continue the same way - they will go up in most developed countries.

NS: Muslims will grow everywhere

SJ: In UK alone,  in the last 30 years close to 170 Hindu temples or more (as per my knowledge) have come up whereas there were very few in 1960 or so. Please correct me if my data is wrong

NS: U.K. is more tolerant than it used to be but the constitution is Church of England

SJ: I think yes but it may also change in the future as Hindu population goes up. Church itself is changing and incorporating many principles of Hinduism within its teachings slowly 😀

NS: Despite constitution being [what it is – traditional C.O.E. Monarchist democracy] there are more MPs and Lords of ethnic minority here [in UK] than other western countries

SJ: Yes. [But] I think in course of time world will adopt more and more Hindu ideas. Although because of their ego they might not acknowledge it is a Hindu idea.

NS: Some very good ideas. But people do not portray the goodness properly. [After all], Hinduism is the oldest religion / civilisation known.

SJ: Well you are right. The Caucasian race is often obsessed with thinking they are the best. They have difficulty understanding spiritual systems which do not fall into -1 or +1 kind of logic.

NS: Yes agree. And high focus on gathering/ aggression. Possibly colder climates. There are a few good Hindu organisations in U.K.

SJ: I think lot of Hindu organisations are trying to make aggressive groups in India which believe in violence. I think it is not good in the long run for India because in my opinion it is not genuine Hinduism.

NS: Yes agree. Maybe, to combat aggression in Islam and Christianity.

SJ: I think genuine Hinduism is a spiritual and ethical fountainhead. For example,  Lord Ram [from Hindu epic Ramayana] did not hate Kaikeyi because she was the cause of his exile in forest. He won her over with love on course of time

NS: 👍

SJ: Yes maybe these guys feel that there is some aggression coming from Islam and Christianity and this is the only way to combat it. [But] I think systemic and ethical solutions are needed.

NS: [Hindus] must be scared of what has happened in the past - half of Hinduism wiped out because others used force.

SJ: Well that is true. But I don't think at that time the kingdoms in India saw themselves as one India.

NS: True. But you need a sword to defend against a sword.

SJ: For example, many Hindu rulers have also killed so many fellow countrymen. For example, Ashoka invading Kalinga. Similarly, Marathas invading Bengal. Similarly higher castes have done so much atrocities against lower castes. Even today in Kerala some higher caste Namboodiri Brahmins won't touch lower castes or even Christians and Muslims.

NS: Long ago history. There's been the Roman Empire, Alexander, etc. Also more recently: the USA, Canada, Australia and New Zealand are all build on blood of native red Indians and Aborigines virtually eradicated.

SJ: I think in ancient India there was this concept of Bharatvarsha which consisted of many small kingdoms --- but in today's concept I think the whole world is the Bharatvarsha and different countries are equal to different kingdoms. But some people are still stuck on the ancient geographical idea of Bharatvarsha . This creates problems because some of the kingdoms mentioned in ancient Bharatvarsha is in Afghanistan etc

NS: I don't think many people even know of it.

SJ: The problem is that in a globalised world the boundaries of countries are collapsing. Also, the time taken to travel from South India to North India in ancient times was much more than what it takes to travel from India to US... therefore it is essential that those who read Gita and understand the global vision must understand that whole world is Bharatvarsha today. The reach and power of internet, telecommunications and media make this a small one global world. In fact Christians and Muslims are increasingly treating whole world as their field whereas many Hindus are still stuck on the idea that we should 'protect' Hinduism within four walls of India.

NS: Totally agree. Hindus should also spread their religion like Muslims and Christians do

SJ: In fact if you gaze into the future --- it is possible that more intellectual Brahmin Hindus will increasingly move into Countries such as UK, US, Australia, Canada ---  and leave India as India becomes hotter and hotter [in terms of climate].  It also more unliveable due to population growth and net migration from Bangladesh etc .

NS: Yes

SJ: Now, in my opinion there is nothing wrong with it because in ancient times also Brahmins had moved from banks of Saraswati to South India etc.  At that time, they must have felt the same pain of moving from one country to another. But if I tell this to Hindu leaders today in India they will be very mad at me and call me anti national and enemy of India.

NS: 👎

SJ: So I think lot of Hindu organisations have difficulty viewing the big picture and they are obsessed with the four walls of present day India. However despite the good army and so on, China is slowly eating away Indian territory inch by inch. Of course I feel India should make itself strong and keep itself as the fountainhead of wisdom ethics and spirituality but Hindu organisations must also view the entire globe as the playing arena.

NS: Yes China is growing. Indians are more scared of the brain drain and capital drain from India.

SJ: Yes my question is that why should Indians not think of influencing developed countries such as US or UK and getting these nations to see the wisdom from East ... so in course if time these countries should be [more] Hindu so that even if Indian territory goes down Hinduism does not get destroyed.

NS: Yes true; some people are putting Gita in hotel rooms in USA but that is minor; also Sikh prayers were said at a public [state government] congregation in California a few months ago. But need to influence the politics and constitution. For example in U.K. They do not allow Hindu or Muslim (religious) representatives in the House of Lords but they have 27 Bishops and the Chief Rabbi. Also Prince Charles said to a newspaper that he would be leader of faith in general (not just head of Church of England (hopefully he meant a secular constitution)

SJ: What is most likely to happen is that as more and more people understand Hinduism better... more and more Christians and Islamists will adopt the principles of Hinduism and incorporate it into Islam and Christianity without calling it Hinduism (obviously to save their face). In my humble opinion, even if this happens it is still good for the world because the function of a candle is to provide light. Who lights it or who gets credit for lighting it is not that important. Hinduism is a pathway of scientific spiritual ethos and ultimately it will benefit the world even if people who adopt it call it by another name....

NS: I agree that spreading the light or spirituality is important like Radha Swamis as an example class themselves as a spiritual organisation. But letting ones Religious teaching being hijacked or stolen and sold under guise of other religions would be sad and a sell-out. A lot of Hindu teachings, science, etc have thus been hijacked and guised as English or western- what a shame!

SJ: Yes it is a bit of shame, but I think in the end those who adopt Hindu principles will get the benefit. Hinduism is meant for welfare of all, even those who deny it credit. I think some Hindu leaders might call it digestion, but in my opinion even if the others give credit to us. It is just a matter of our ego message ... if we are not so bothered about our ego message then it should not matter to us whether the principles taught in India are being used for the welfare of the world (even if no credit is given to ancient India).

NS: That's very giving and generous like the past - yes Moguls and British please loot us, exploit us and convert us.

SJ: Even if the principles of Hinduism is repackaged as Sufism or Scientology or some other ism.... I think as long as it brings welfare to the world - I think it is good for the world. In my opinion we should lawfully protect our heritage in India care for it etc. And also keep India militarily strong to prevent aggression like we have seen in history. But the point I am making is that despite all these - if people of other religions adopt Hindu teachings within their religious dogma - it is good for the world. And we should not grudge it.

NS: Yoga and meditation already is - some with spirituality. [It is late midnight] Yawn…I'm going to meditate now. Bye

SJ: Ok let us continue tomorrow on this point ... I am [also] feeling sleepy.  Nice discussion😀.  

[After the discussion was over we both agreed that it might be good to publish it in some form, perhaps in the form of a blog.]

Important Disclaimer: Some arguments in this discussion are intellectual positions taken for the sake of discussion/debate only and may not reflect the actual thinking or personal opinions of Mr. Staju Jacob and Mr. Naresh S.

©Staju Jacob and Naresh S, 2017.

Staju Jacob has held many senior lecturing posts at Colleges and Universities. He is the author of the path-breaking book Karmasutra The Karma of Sex, which deals with the karmic spirituality of consensual sexual actions. This book is available globally on various Amazon sites in Paperback and Kindle, Sony Kobo, Google books, Iphone Ibook etc.  He may be contacted on Twitter @KaRmasutraTKOS . Naresh S is a Chartered Certified Accountant and used to be a part ime Associate Professor at an International University in London for 12 years. He also has a MBA from Cranfield University and another MSc and a BSc. Twitter  @wowblog2u .

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